On Tue, 07-12-05 9:17 pm
Tim, in his post “Why Doesn’t God Choose Everybody?”, gives a reasonable and sound answer to an inquirer’s question. The problem as posed is basically expressing a need to understand how a good God can allow anyone to go to hell when (obviously) it is within His power to prevent it.
As the good Reformed theologian that he is, Tim leans heavily on election and God’s sovereignty to provide his response. He admits that some things about God and His ways are beyond our comprehension – and he is surely right about that – and quotes Rom 9:18-19 in support of his reply to the question:
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’”
The sole concept that I would add to Tim’s already-sufficient response grows out of a couple of statements he makes as well as a passage from the same chapter of Romans. Tim writes,
As mere created beings we have no right to question His sovereign decrees . . . As Wayne Grudem says in his Systematic Theology, ‘If God ultimately decided to create some creatures to be saved and others not to be saved, then that was his sovereign choice, and we have no moral or scriptural basis on which we can insist that it was not fair.’”
The passage is Rom 9:22-24, in which Paul asks and answers his own question:
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
That Christians would dare ask such a question – and it does seem to be Christians who ask it most frequently – reveals an audacity and arrogance that belies the depravity of our flesh. It is not just an attitude found in the affluence of our day. Paul apparently encountered the same mentality in his own day, as is evident in his sharp rebuke to objectors crying “foul”:
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it?” (Rom 9:20).
Questions about God’s goodness or fairness are manifestations of the flesh, i.e., everything that is within us that is hostile to God and contrary to His purposes. It is evidence that we, at such times, are not walking in the Spirit – which would result in humility – but are acting and thinking like fleshly unbelievers:
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God” (Rom 8:5-8).
It is difficult impossible for us to assume our position as mere creatures before the Creator if we have our minds set on the flesh. When our minds are fixedly set on the flesh, it demonstrates that we are unsaved; if periodically fixed on the flesh, that we are carnal (1 Cor 3:1-4).
Believers belong to God: He owes us nothing but gives us everything; unbelievers are His, too, and He can do with them as He will. This is Paul’s point in his statement above: if God wishes to create some people who then prepare themselves for destruction, He owes them nothing. This is His creation, not ours; He is bound by His character, not ours.
There is a flavor of Christian thinking that sees the goal of history and the purpose of God’s activities residing in the salvation of humankind. This is as wrong-headed as it is narcissistic.
Simply put, this – that is, all of creation and history and everything that transpires anywhere at anytime – is not about us. It is all about God. We have no say in the matter, no voice, no value other than that which He has bestowed upon us. He owes us no answers, no explanations, and feels no need to defend or justify Himself when we ask our self-righteous questions (as though we have thought of something better – the salvation of all – than God has thought of).
The salvation of all might be the greatest good for all mankind, but it is obviously not the greatest God as far as God is concerned. If such a course of action were the most glorifying to God, He would have saved everyone. But He knows things we do not know – and things we likely will never know – and we need to accept it, bow before Him, and be still.
He is the Creator, we are the creatures. Period. End of discussion. No questions allowed.
mike, thanks for this. i agree that god’s sovereignty has to be the key attitude when having debates like this, however unpalatable we may find the answers.
i would just point out one thing: romans 9v22 starts with the words ‘what if’ – so this doesn’t necessarily mean that he deliberatly prepared some for destruction. instead i think the verse does exactly what you suggest we should be doing – it’s rhetoric asks us if we have a problem with the concept and, if we do, to get our prespective right.
it humbles me,
Rob
I suppose, Mike, that the picture of God you’ve just painted really doesn’t look like a God of love.
I assume too that you hold to omni-determinism (God controls everything), so this would mean that my very questions about His fairness are also determined, right? So why is Paul complaining about things which were determined from eternity, which could never have been otherwise, and so on?
Alwyn
(btw, have you read my comments about your review of Boyd & Larson’s “Escaping the Matrix”?)
Hi Mike,
Well, I have to respectfully disagree, (not with the premise of “everyone will be saved†concept) but rather with the overall tone of your last 3-4 paragraphs. The God you describe here:
“Simply put, this – that is, all of creation and history and everything that transpires anywhere at anytime – is not about us. It is all about God. We have no say in the matter, no voice, no value other than that which He has bestowed upon us. He owes us no answers, no explanations, and feels no need to defend or justify Himself when we ask our self-righteous questions (as though we have thought of something better – the salvation of all – than God has thought of).
The salvation of all might be the greatest good for all mankind, but it is obviously not the greatest God as far as God is concerned. If such a course of action were the most glorifying to God, He would have saved everyone. But He knows things we do not know – and things we likely will never know – and we need to accept it, bow before Him, and be still.
He is the Creator, we are the creatures. Period. End of discussion. No questions allowed.â€
The God you seem to be describing here is not the God I find in theses scriptures:
1. Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
2. 1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. 1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!
A God that would do this for His sinful creation surely can handle a few questions.
I found and article by Dennis Prager here that I used in a post on my blog about parenting: here
While your talking about something different, you seem to have the same attitude about questioning God, that Tripp has about kids who don’t respond with “first time obedience”, and question their parents, to which Mr. Prager makes the following points:
“But early in my life as a father, something powerful struck me as I taught the Bible: I realized that Abraham and Moses both have prolonged arguments with God, and not only doesn’t God mind, He seems to welcome them. In fact, the name He gives Jacob and His Chosen People is “Israel,” which literally means “Struggle with God.” God looks favorably on our arguing with Him (with certain conditions to be noted).
“When God tells Abraham that He will destroy the evil cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham engages in lengthy argument. “Will the judge of all the earth not judge righteously?” Abraham asks, and then goes on asking God if He will spare the cities if there are 50, 45, 40, 30, 20, or even 10 good people living in those cities.
After God tells Moses to return to Egypt to lead the Jews out of slavery, Moses relentlessly argues with God. And when God decides to destroy the Israelites after they worship a golden calf, Moses presents three arguments to God for sparing the Jews.
God respectfully responds to all these arguments, and in the third case, actually accedes to Moses’ arguments.â€
So, yes, we the created are permitted to ask questions, probe and seek answers to the questions that the very mind He created prompts in some of us. I see nothing self-righteous in this, but rather something He delights in as we His children commune with Him.
1 Corinthians 13:12 (King James Version)
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
{{{Candleman}}}
I don’t know if anyone is going to read this because this is an old blog but I want to say to “Mike under Praxis” that your text “Why do we ask such questions?” is so well written it belongs in a published book or pamphlet. If all your writing is on this par, I would be willing to consider purchasing any books that you may write. You’ve nailed it, and it perplexes me how arminians can miss the obvious. Maybe they don’t really miss it, they just deny it, like I did for 30 years. For 30 years God’s sovereignty was slapping me in the face every time I opened my bible. As a fundamental baptist I was taught the mixed (although it was really arminian, just with a twist) doctrine of salvation, and so every time I would come upon a scripture which flatly proved election and/or predestination, which was nearly every time I taught a lesson, I would immediately begin to explain to my students why the bible doesn’t really mean what it really said, such as “as many as were ordained to eternal life believed”.(you know, I had to tell them that what that really means is that they were ordained to eternal life because God SAW that they WOULD believe, never mind the plain english of the verse). What a blessed day it was when I finally surrendered to the truth and truely gave God his glory for the first time in my life. Alwyn and Candleman, it’s right in front of you! To his glory, Joel.